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Post by Vlad on Jul 23, 2012 23:01:08 GMT 2
Now, I don't meant to spark up a potential debate on this joining of like-minded individuals, however, it is a discussion I would like to start, especially with individuals that are trained in Orthodox theology.
So here it is:
What are your views on the doctrine of the Aerial Toll Houses?
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Post by JamesfromTA on Jul 23, 2012 23:08:14 GMT 2
Its an interesting topic; I've heard multiple views on it, some who take it in a literal sense and others (like Archbishop Lazar Puhalo) who say its gnostic. It confuses me quite a bit to be fair just because of the divergent views on it. Do you have a basic explanation? Every one I've found has been fairly complex, haha!
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Post by Vlad on Jul 23, 2012 23:19:38 GMT 2
Well, basically, when a soul dies, it must go through a journey which includes several aerial toll houses. At each of these toll houses, demons will attempt to accuse the soul of sins unrepented for. If the demons can name at least one sin, they will take the soul away to hell.
Personally... I do not agree with this teaching. Demons are fallen, and they are liars. They have no authority to take the soul out of the hands of God and into hell. Also, they cannot accuse the soul of anything, since demons are liars.
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Post by JamesfromTA on Jul 23, 2012 23:51:16 GMT 2
Ah okay! Yes, I don't get that because like you say, the demons are liars so how they can judge any soul doesn't make sense. I just found a pretty good discussion of it and after reading both sides of the argument its something I personally disagree with as well.
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Post by OrthodoxBrit on Jul 24, 2012 0:26:55 GMT 2
This is a tricky subject, one which has caused many online debates and arguments, especially as it is mentioned by some Church Fathers and certainly some version of it has a place in patristic writing, yet it is hardly actually discussed until modern times.
The main issue I have with it is that though I accept that there may well be some kind of post-mortem tribulation, I would not speculate as to what actually happens. The Toll Houses come mainly from sources such as St Theodora's dream, which gives great detail, though this 'Toll House' idea is not so detailed in others where it would be a ladder, a 'slippery slope' or some other journey through darkness. Either way, in my view it gives no role to in life repentence nor does it explain such things as the Good Thief, who was with Christ "this day." Admittedly, we have the 40 day prayers for the dead, which shows some tradition of a journey, but I feel that the actions of those such as Fr Seraphim Rose to speculate or create a system based on the dream of a single saint (we know dreams of this type are often apocalyptic) is to take an idea and run with it to the extreme (which was a talent of the late Heiromonk).
The Key thing to remember is that if it is an Orthodox teaching, it is not Dogma, and therefore you do not have to accept it or reject it. The teaching is debated at the most in the EO and has no recognition in the Oriental Orthodox Either, though Saint Macarius did mention a story of a monk on a ladder being tempted before he could reach Heaven.
The general OO response I have recieved form those I have spoken to is "We do not speculate such things..." which I think is the best response whether from EO or OO.
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Post by JamesfromTA on Jul 24, 2012 0:39:15 GMT 2
I think that's the best response. We will only really find out when we die and until then its a mystery but we should just trust in the Lord.
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Post by OrthodoxBrit on Jul 24, 2012 1:05:11 GMT 2
I think that's the best response. We will only really find out when we die and until then its a mystery but we should just trust in the Lord. It seems that many in the EO agree that discussion and debate of this issue is detrimental to our spiritual lives also. It is rare that I agree with the views of Orthodoxinfo.com but they say on the matter: To add conjectures to the little that the Lord has been pleased to reveal to us is not beneficial to our salvation, and all disputes in this domain are now especially detrimental, the more so when they become the object of the discussion of people who have not been fully established in the Faith. Acrid polemic apart from the spirit of mutual love turns such an exchange of opinions from a deliberation into an argument about words. The positive preaching of truths of the Church may be profitable, but not disputes in an area which is not subject to our investigation, but which evokes in the unprepared reader false notions on questions of importance to our salvation. And I certainly agree with them on this. |
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Post by JamesfromTA on Jul 24, 2012 1:17:35 GMT 2
They definitely have taken a very good position on it.
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Post by Vlad on Jul 24, 2012 2:11:39 GMT 2
Another point: From my understanding, hell in the Orthodox perspective isn't so much a physical place where one endures suffering as a form of punishment, but rather it is the direct experience of God's presence which is perceived as suffering by a soul that rejects God. So, how can a demon exactly have any sort of influence on one's fate, especially to the degree that the demon drags the soul into hell (Which, again, the demon has no authority to do so, even in a Western perspective).
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Post by alokin on Apr 20, 2013 12:59:13 GMT 2
One thing we need to remember brethren : We can not pick and choose what we think is the teaching of the Church, or what some scholar thinks regardless of their status or hierarchy - HOLY FATHERS teach the existence of Toll Houses and they prove it through Scriptural revelations. One thing I can agree with you, is that the teaching on the Toll Houses has to an extent been distorted by some modern faithful, but that does not deter from the fact that they are waiting for us after our earthly death...
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Post by OrthodoxBrit on Jun 2, 2013 23:53:59 GMT 2
Alokin, a brief correction.
SOME Holy Fathers speak of this post-mortem tribulation, others do not, and some speak of other things.
As you pointed out, thinkers have distorted the idea over time, so there is no true understanding of what it means. This is why I stay out of such guesswork.
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