grimlok
Monastic
Inquirer
Posts: 11
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Post by grimlok on Jul 25, 2012 22:58:41 GMT 2
Being that I am new to Orthodox ideas and what not, and the fact that I read these threads and see all the big words that are way beyond my grasp as of right now, I will start my own topic to start to better understand Orthodoxy.
Infant baptism, why? In the "Baptist" background I come from one gets baptised once one truly understands what it means to be baptised, this often leads to some never being baptised, and it is also kinda trivialized.
What say you? Why baptise as an infant?
Thank you for your answers.
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Post by OrthodoxBrit on Jul 25, 2012 23:34:31 GMT 2
The main thing to think about is why not? The practice is Scriptural and by the command of the Lord himself before and during the Incarnation. The Old testament demands that Children become part of the Covenant. Elder Cleopa explains the issue better than i ever could. There in [the Old Testament] we read how God appeared to Abraham when he was ninety-nine years of age and, among things, told him to circumcise all the men and to circumcise all the male children who would be born from that time on on the eighth day after their birth. As for him who would not be circumcised , he would perish (Gen 17: 10-14). We see, then, that God did not say to Abraham that children and youth should be circumscribed when they became adults. If Baptism is a matter of Covenant why should it be Denied. Also Christ said "Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven; And He laid His hands on them, and departed hence" (Matt 19: 13-15) So if Christ has called them to Salvation, who are we to deny them this? Lastly, the practice is Apostolic. The Apostles baptised entire families as the book of Acts states that they baptised people "And their household" which in Roman Society meant everyone, including the whole family and even slaves and never mentions missing the children. Some examples are here: Acts 16:15 - Paul baptized Lydia and her entire household. Acts 16:33 - Paul baptized the jailer and his entire household.1 Cor. 1:16 - Paul baptized the household of Stephanus.As for an age of reason, that is unscriptural. We do not see God put any expectations of this on a family in OT or NT. Baptism is Sacramental, like the Circumcision of the OT. We are reminded that Baprism is needed, not just faith, so to deny Children this is to deny them the benefits of the Sacrament. Elder Cleopa says that: It is true that children are not capable of believing at the young age of their Baptism, but neither are they able to doubt or deny Christ. He is not saved who only believes, but he who first of all is baptized... St john Chrysostom also explains it, saying: "You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors [it bestows]! For this reason we baptize even infants, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his [Christ’s] members." So to deny a child this gift based on age, or to claim they need to be a certain age to recieve it is to go against Scripture and the teachings therein. Hope this helps. Daniel.
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Suryoyo
Hermit
Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 51
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Post by Suryoyo on Jul 25, 2012 23:44:49 GMT 2
This conversation might help, Ann is from the Jaobite Syrian Orthodox Church, the priest is protestant: www.stignatious.com/annseries/baptism.htmA couple of quotes: Scholar Origen: "The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants." St Gregory the Theologian: "Do you have an infant child? Allow sin no opportunity; rather, let the infant be sanctified from childhood. From his most tender age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Do you fear the seal [of baptism] because of the weakness of nature? Oh, what a pusillanimous mother and of how little faith!"
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grimlok
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Post by grimlok on Jul 26, 2012 3:45:52 GMT 2
Thank you all,
You have definitely given me food for thought. Unfortunately in my background you don't usually get to hear the reasons why the "other side" does what they do, and one must seek out such information.
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Post by OrthodoxBrit on Jul 26, 2012 12:28:53 GMT 2
I think that the key thing to remember here is that Infact baptism was the norm in Apostolic times and the opposition to it is entirely modern, so those who support it are not the ones required to justify our view as we hold what was the norm in the Christian world.
if anything, it would be someone who is opposed to this practice who would expected to justify their opposition, as someone who had denied the use of a national language would be expected to prove that this language was inadequate and that their view was stronger. The same would go for Infant communion, which was only abolished in Rome at Trent in the 15th Century and was the norm until that point.
Grimlok, what are the traditional Baptist arguments against infant Baptism? I was thinking that perhaps we could break them down and analyse them since I have never (even pre-Baptism) seen anything as wrong with it so am interested in finding out why some do.
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grimlok
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Post by grimlok on Jul 26, 2012 19:40:25 GMT 2
Basically they believe in an age of understanding or awareness, and until that is reached then one is not ready for baptism, because it is a dire and serious matter and should not be taken lightly.
There was infant communion? How would that even work? Blend up the bread and wine in a bottle?
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Post by OrthodoxBrit on Jul 27, 2012 1:28:28 GMT 2
Basically they believe in an age of understanding or awareness, and until that is reached then one is not ready for baptism, because it is a dire and serious matter and should not be taken lightly. That is interesting. Three issues I see are: 1. In Luke 18:16, where Christ says "Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God" the word used in the Greek is "brepha" for the Children, literally meaning infants; so these were very young. 2. I also do not see any biblical premise for young Children not being allowed partake in Salvation when it was open for all before the Covenant unless it is suggesting God has not decided to deny Children this. 3. I do not see how the argument fares when the Apostles baptised entire families (including their Children). It never mentions that, so do they think that their practice is superior to that of those taught by Christ? I would love to hear other views on this since, as someone who is not from a protestant background, I am analysing it from a personal perspective. Does anyone else have a view here? There was infant communion? How would that even work? Blend up the bread and wine in a bottle? It is taken the same as any other,though the traditional eastern Practice is to mix the Body and Blood, allowing it to be digestible to a baby. Infant communion existed in the west also until the 1600's at the Council of Trent when it was banned by the Roman Church. This was originally due to the technical issue where they claimed Children kept dropping the host,therefore only receiving the blood and stopped the practice for practical reasons. In the later Catechism the 'age of reason' argument emerged, though this was a later development. It went on in the west to be made Anathema to commune a Child, though this was lifted recently so the Eastern Rite Unia Churches have since gone back to communing Children, as this was the earlier practice. The history of Rome's Anathematising of Infant Communion is a fascinating topic. I havehad to cover it in an article before, here is a good link on the subject. The section by the Eastern catholic professor is especially enlightening on the matter. orthocath.wordpress.com/2010/01/09/infants-sharing-in-the-lords-table/
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evanglicancatholic
Novice
May the holy cross be my light! May the dragon never be my guide!
Posts: 4
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Post by evanglicancatholic on Jul 27, 2012 4:53:51 GMT 2
A simple sociological example bears consideration when speaking about this topic. By including the faithful from infancy in the complete worship of the Church, the Church tells each child, "You are welcome here. This is your home. This is where you belong." The varying degrees of separation introduced in the West (separating Baptism from Confirmation by roughly 10 years, the idea of a "First Communion", the credo-baptism of the Baptists and the practices of Calvary Chapel that explicitly exclude young children from their worship services) tell each child that, "You are not an adult. You are not welcome here. This is not your home." And the statistics bear this out. By the time a Western Christian reaches adulthood, they finally agree with what they have been taught by example and simply leave the Church altogether, never to return again.
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grimlok
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Post by grimlok on Jul 29, 2012 12:07:11 GMT 2
It must also be noted that a lot protestant churches separate salvation from baptism, I know this to be true with baptists. One gets "saved" and then gets baptised if they want after salvation.
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evanglicancatholic
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May the holy cross be my light! May the dragon never be my guide!
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Post by evanglicancatholic on Jul 29, 2012 20:53:01 GMT 2
Even though, after his sermon on the day of Pentecost, St. Peter explicitly states, "Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins." Thus we need to grapple with two issues: 1. We are called to turn from our sins and be baptized, not simply believe. 2. The purpose of that baptism is to remit our sins, i.e., to take them away. It is the "washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Spirit." We are "born of water and the Spirit" as Jesus said. And another issue as well must be dealt with: St. Peter says later, "For the promise is to you and to your children and to those who are afar off." The promise of what? The "remission of sin." How are our sins remitted? Through baptism. St. Peter reiterates this in his first epistle when he writes, "for baptism now saves you baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience." The rite is not an empty act of getting wet. When we abide in Christ's command to be baptized, we enter into the mystery of the Incarnation. We are baptized into Christ's own baptism and begin the lifelong journey to our own crucifixion of the flesh, a daily mortification. We move from faith to faith, grace to grace, and strength to strength. Baptism is as much a miracle as turning water into wine. When God's people pray together united in the Holy Spirit and proclaim the Gospel in the baptismal rite, God's Spirit, accompanying the Word preached, does the work of God through the willing, yet meager, people of God. And it is Christ who baptizes through the ministration of the priest. And the Spirit descends in that moment and the Father looks at us and says, "This is my beloved son/daughter, in whom I am well-pleased."
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